YouTube "Not so cool facts about Israel"

rendition · Post by **rendition** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:25 pm

nekokate wrote:It appears to be an interpretation from the same speech that has already been debunked by Farsi speaking professors, so it doesn't hold much clout at all.

So the President's own people are getting it wrong? This is my point. Talk about handing an excuse to attack Iran on a plate!

Pete

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:34 pm

Rendition wrote: So the President's own people are getting it wrong? This is my point. Talk about handing an excuse to attack Iran on a plate!

The anti-Iran coalition always had the upper hand on Media PR .. and "spin".

As an analogy, if a US General (retired) says that continuing with Bush's plans would mean the destruction of the US Army, does that mean the US General WANTS the destruction of the US Army, or is he making a prediction of what he thinks will happen if present policies continue ?

Benquasha · Post by **Benquasha** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:51 pm

Hi

This is Benquasha,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my youtbe presentation"not so cool". As I have said in my reply to Mandy posted here, the primary aim of this video was to create discussion, hopefully a constructive and rewarding one.

It was interesting for me to read the comments here.

I only want to cooment on few things.

Kate, the disabling of comments on a youtube video is not always a sign that this video is propaganda. The issue is that youtube is an open arena. Every one can post a comment. I allowed comments on my video for weks, but 99% of the comments were racist, insultive, and very dirty ones. I then decided to monitor the comments, cuz I felt I can not allow hate speech on my video page, but I found that monitoring comments is a tedious task. So I did not allow comments at all. But still I recieve more serious and genuine comments on the video to my inbox at youtube and I find that more rewarding.

Also you mention the working in the kline between exposing the ugliness of occupation and the creation of hate. I agree to this description. But the thing is that I, and millions of Palestinians, have been living on this line for decades now. And one of the heavy burdens of the occupation is that we, the occupied, need to shield ourselves from hating the occupier. Some of us were successful in separating betwen the occupation and the occupiers, but others were not.

What you describe as a parade of horror stories in this presentation is the reality of my daily life and the daily life of most Palestinians. What seems to you as a concentration of pain in a presentation is actually what we live in day and night.

I do not claim that all the "facts" are indeed academic facts. The US vetos may be 100 or 70 or less or more. But the idea is the same.

The message of this video is that occupation is ugly. Not only for the victims of the occupation; the occupied. It is ugly for the occupiers, because they become not cool. They become occupiers, with another face that is ugly.

B

rendition · Post by **rendition** » Fri May 11, 2007 7:00 pm

Sorry Mandy, I didn't realise what you meant. I can't find it on the new site either.

I see what you mean with the spelling mistakes. "saw discord" is another one on the original link I supplied.

I also agree with your comments

That sounds like a statement of what he thinks will happen with the growing turmoil in the Islamic world. Where does Ahmadinejad say he WANTS "this" to happen ? i.e. he wants "growing turmoil in the Islamic world" and he WANTS "Israel wiped off the map" ?

The anti-Iran coalition always had the upper hand on Media PR .. and "spin".

As an analogy, if a US General (retired) says that continuing with Bush's plans would mean the destruction of the US Army, does that mean the US General WANTS the destruction of the US Army, or is he making a prediction of what he thinks will happen if present policies continue ?

No but then again, no-one is looking to attack the retired general and install a puppet in his place!

I'm glad I brought this up, you've helped.

luke · Post by **luke** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:13 pm

welcome to the forum benquasha

harry perkins · Post by **harry perkins** » Sat May 12, 2007 1:46 am

Welcome to the forum benquasha, and thanks for the explanation of the video. Now that you've made clear that there is some journalistic license behind some of the claims I can say on the whole I completely agree with the video, after I read the first comment I waited for the bigoted bits but they never materialised. Having been involved in Palestine Solidarity and gone to PSC meetings and demos where I heard eyewitness accounts of the occupation, nothing in the video was new to me; it was of course shocking simply to remember all the terrible things I already new, and the picyure of people queing at the wall for some reason brought it all home to me.
I actually think both the videos are mainly true. What the pro-Israel one does for me is say "Look at all this wealth and talent and beauty, would it not be better and more secure if it was shared, rather than being built on the blood and misery of another people?" If this massive development remains exclusive to one race, while another are on the brink of starvation in the same basic country, then it is both morally corrupt and unsustainable; it will go the way of Atlantis and Rome, lest it chooses to go the way of South Africa. Thats why I would support a one state solution based on democracy in which the Jews can stay, and if Ahmadinejad does too that doesn't make him a bogeyman. Whereas his holocaust conference was completely mad as well as just plain wrong.
On a (somewhat) lighter note its interesting that the pro-Israel video was bragging about "Checkpoint" software, I wonder if were the makers courting controversy or actually beyond parody.

rendition · Post by **rendition** » Sat May 12, 2007 7:26 am

harry wrote:Whereas his holocaust conference was completely mad as well as just plain wrong.

When you say Holocaust conference, are you referring to the 'world without zionism' conference. I'd like to learn more on why it was just 'plain wrong'. I keep reading here and there that Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust and he should be condemned for his comments but after trying quite hard to get to the facts of what was said, I'm unable to condemn him myself. For the record, I'm no supporter of Ahmadinejad. He is hardly a beacon of light in this world - I just don't want another war based on 'incorrect facts'.

Benquasha · Post by **Benquasha** » Sat May 12, 2007 8:50 am

Thank you Luke and Harry

Well Harry, actually when I look at some ppl reaction to the video and see how they can not comprehend that it is true I feel more saddened about our miserable conditions under this occupation, because I realize once again that the occupation has brought us to a situation thats boarders the unthinkable.

These waiting lines at the checkpoints are mentioned once in the video, but as you know from your experience in Palestine, these are a daily life for many including me. I spend more time on the checkpoints than in my job. Will many ppl believe this?

And that "checkpoint" software company. I think its an internet security company, and by using the name "checkpoint" they want to convey strength or control or whatever the idea of checkpoints suggest. To be honest with you, it is this particular slide from that prsentation that made me do mine.

Last, hats off for the PSM and the vulanteers who invest their money and their time and risk coming to Palestine to promote peace and be a witness for the life under this horrible occupation. You guys mean a lot to us, in the dark night of this occupation, you give me and thousands of Palestinian young men and women a light that points to a colour full window of hope and a better future. Inn a time were many are silent about our misery, out of cowardness or out of ignorance, you spoke the truth in a small but rather penetrating voice. Love.

maycm · Post by **maycm** » Sun May 13, 2007 1:08 am

Benquasha, welcome to the forum. I'm pleased (not sure if this the right word) you have pointed out that some licence and exaggeration was included in your video. It led me to draw conclusions regarding an unbalanced viewpoint, and as you say certain "facts" (your emphasis) are not academically correct, so it also just further unbalanced the video to the point that one might question both the credibility and the motives behind it.

I don't believe its possible for any of us to understand the position you are in fully, nor to appreciate the desperation of the palestinian people when things are as you say they are. There are many, many things that are happening that should not.

The pointless killing of civilians is unacceptable (on both sides). The pointless demolishing of settlements and expulsion of the people that make these places their homes is unacceptable, and one that bears a great similarity to what happened to thousands of Jewish people in eastern europe (which makes it a hypocritical act if ever there was one).

I do not doubt that connected with both of these issues there is a level of violence and abuses that are gruesome and should be undeniably condemed.

The wall (however you wish to describe it) is a knee jerk reaction to homicide bombers (in my opinion the term suicide bomber infers that the only person harmed is the bomber him/herself) that has escalated too far and while it is considered to be for Israel's protection, its reasonable to state it further alienates your people and makes them more desperate, especially as there has at least historically been some degree of movement through the borders that allowed passage for the purpose of work, and other things that we in the 'west' take for granted.

There is no doubt a dark side to this, which needs to end. The violence we both speak of will continue until the bravest of the brave on each side will be the ones who make the realisation that the only way forward is peace, respect and cooperation, and sharing land and territory in such a way that benefits all, while assuring security..

There are huge hurdles of trust to be overcome on both sides. Let us not lose sight of the fact that some similarly pointless killing and murders are being performed by palestinian bombs. Is it any different to go into a crowded restaurant or buses of locals and tourists and detonate an explosion than to fire a missile into a residential area?

There seems to be a general lack of balance in this forum too. The thought that there is wrong and injustice on only one side is shortsighted and ignorant. I have posted two further You Tube videos. If this is an accurate representation of "the other side of the story" then it only serves to indicate a sickening and significant wrong on that side too, and shows a lack of a will to find a peaceful solution and mutual respect and an intentional push to more violence.

I do not claim to know whether the translations are true and accurate. If they are, it leads me to believe that the next generation is going to be just as polarised as this (indeed this may border on child abuse for this to even happen). Some people may be shocked at the content. These children are being told this doctrine as a God given truth, and you'll note that all the time they refer to 'Jews' and not 'Israelis' or 'Zionists'. I invite your comments on accuracy and content.

Perhaps there is also similar things happening in Israel, with similar indoctrination, I don't claim to know, but if there is they certainly don't show it in the media, which in itsself shows a warped 'pride' in what they are saying and doing. If this is happening in Israel then there is little hope for peace in the near future. I hope I am wrong.

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DavidGig · Post by **DavidGig** » Sun May 13, 2007 5:17 am

Maycm, MEMRI is an interesting organization:

SELECTIVE MEMRI
Brian Whitaker, August 12, 2002
https://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/jou ... 58,00.html

BIN LADEN'S AUDIO: THREAT TO STATES?
Juan Cole, November 02, 2004
https://www.juancole.com/2004/11/bin-lad ... tates.html

MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone, and is a sophisticated anti-Arab propaganda machine. The organization cleverly cherry-picks the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials. It carefully does not translate the moderate articles. I have looked at newspapers that ran both tolerant and extremist opinion pieces on the same day, and checked MEMRI, to find that only the extremist one showed up. It would sort of be as though al-Jazeera published translations of Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and Jerry Falwell on Islam and the Middle East, but never published opinion piences on the subject by William Beeman or Dick Bulliet.

MEMRI is enormously popular with strong Jewish nationalists in the United States, who often subscribe to it by email, and are being given an unbalanced view of the region as a result. In some instances the translations are not very good, but the main objection is the selectiveness of the material. MEMRI is one of a number of public relations campaigns essentially on behalf of the far rightwing Likud Party in Israel that tries to shape American perceptions of Muslims and the Middle East in a negative direction.

If you're interested in understanding what is going on in Palestine, it's probably not a good place to begin, particularly if you're sensitive to "propaganda."

DavidGig · Post by **DavidGig** » Sun May 13, 2007 5:38 am

(I would also like to remind you that you did implicitly call Benquasha "anti semetic." While it's true this charge gets thrown around pretty quickly these days, it's still not a nice thing to say and it's a definite barrier to productive conversation about Israel. You might want to clarify for him/her whether you still stand by this accusation.)

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:33 am

I totally agree with DavidGig.

A few issues I would appreciate maycm replying to :

i) Facts in the "Not Cool" video
=======================

When asked earlier to point to specific facts and to argue them out, you ignored the request after earlier saying you don't have the time .. but you seem to have the time to write long forum postings and quote from an apparent Israeli intelligence propaganda outlet.

So, PLEASE, argue the points in the original "Not cool" video .. point to facts you don't agree with. Try to help by saying what the corrects specific facts are.

If Benquasha had the resources of the Israeli state and/or their supports (like Memri) she could have written a PhD with full documentation on the "facts", and she could have hoped it wouldn't then be relegated to the dustbin like so many other attempts. Her video is a great effort considering her circumstances, and it can be improved with constructive criticism and feedback .. something you don't seem to want to give (e.g. by refusing to discuss or correct any of the facts).

ii) re BALANCE in this forum
====================

maycm wrote:There seems to be a general lack of balance in this forum too

Maycm, your approach seems to be the same as the pro-Israeli / pro-Zionist proponents. So which part of the spectrum isn't represented ?

If by balance, you mean as representative of the world opinion, then please do answer what % of the world population do you think represent your "pro-Israeli / pro-Zionist" viewpoint ? YES ... DO PLEASE ANSWER SINCE YOU ARE CRITICISING THE FORUM.

iii) Justice
========

maycm wrote:The thought that there is wrong and injustice on only one side is shortsighted and ignorant.

Please tell us what you think what "solution" would bring "justice" to both sides. Which court should arbitrate ? Or should it be left to the "battle field" ?

Please tell us if you acknowledge the injustice done to the Palestinian People ? Do you even acknowledge that diaspora were coerced (terrorised) out of their homes and prevented from coming back. And even if they left voluntarily (or wee travelling) should still have a right of return to THEIR homes ?

All sides in any issue or crime have some measure of "injustice". For example, a criminal could be regarded as having suffered an "injustice" if he gets injured during a robbery. That doesn't stop the criminal still to be "guilty" of a crime of robbery.

iv) Your Approach
==============
I am not a moderator on this forum. But in my personal opinion, Maycm, you have in this short thread thrown about the accusations of anti-semitism, unbalanced, shortsightedness, ignorance, whilst not trying to point to specific issues which are not factually correct in order to correct them, whilst promoting what can be called government sponsored propaganda. Turning your own phrase round, do you want to be associated with pro-Zionist propaganda ?

Benquasha · Post by **Benquasha** » Sun May 13, 2007 10:32 am

Hey Maycm,

The presentation to that you are trying so hard to down play was meant not to be taught at a Harvard school but to brain storm and stir ppl to think and question what is going on in Palestine. I can see clearly they you have missed the point.

There is no exaggeration in this presentation. In my research to do this presentation, the first thing I avoided was exaggeration and I always preferred the reports with lower numbers. This what makes me say my figures are not academically correct, because to be academically correct, I need more space of presentation to display the different figures. Thus I always went with the most accepted figures.

Also in statements like "Israel has the Guinness book record in so and so" , of course the Guinness Book does not list such things. But it was a parody of the other video phrasing.

Now if you see any thing that is "wrong", or "twisted" or false" in this presentation, why do not point it out so that I can edit it in my next version of this presentation? Because I see you since the beginning of this discussion you provided no counter claims at all.

I'm not very encouraged by you bla bla about peace and trust building, your talk reminds me of figures like Netanyahu and Sharon, its like "we will take your land and our water and make you our slave working force and you have to love us so that we will have peace". This is not peace talk.

Let me show you why I think your vision of the situation is not constructive. You are comparing the evacuation of the settlements with the destruction of the Palestinian homes, and you are sad because the settlers were taken out of Gaza? Even the right wing Sharon came to realize that he has to pull the fanatic religious zealots out of Gaza, but it seems you have other plans for your vision of peace.

The Palestinians have for the first time in history provided a realistic practical plan for peace. They conceded to having a state on 20% of mandate Palestine, their historical home land. These 20% are the Gaza and West Bank. Now the settlers who have illegally settled on Palestinian lands are the main obstacle to peace. In order to have any meaningful peace, these settlers need either leave to Israel or accept being in a Palestinian state. But they refuse either option. They want the land and want to continue be Israeli citizens.

These settlers are building their homes on Palestinian lands. My grandfather has lost tens of dunums of fields his family had for generation because they were taken by a near by settlement. The settlers in Gaza that you are feeling sad about built their homes on Palestinian fields and used Palestinian water for their agriculture. They are thieves, but thieves who justify their theft.

As for the apartheid wall, I do not care if Israelis build a wall or a castle, but my problem is that they are building it on my land. They did not build the wall on Israeli land. They are building it on Palestinian land, and thus they destroy fields, they grasp more land, they create ghettos and prison cities like Qalqilya. This wall makes the creation of a Palestinian state virtually impossible because it cuts through the West Bank like a snake. Its a human disaster built on the small piece of land that the Palestinians conceded to be their state, the mere 20%. Now this 20% is becoming 15% then 10% then 5% then I think we will be offered to make our state in in the virtual world.

Which brings me to the issue of trust building you seem so concerned about. As A Palestinian I do not care about building trust with the Israelis, not about if they love me or not, What I care about is to live free and in dignity, and if I’m denied this freedom and dignity I do not beg it, I fight for it.

Now for the first time, the Palestinians and the Arabs have offered Israel a real peace plan, A plan to create two states. A real sharing of land and of Jerusalem. But unfortunately Israeli leadership is too weak now to talk peace or to produce the needed leaders to go forward. They are weak due to corruption, to their miserable defeat in Lebanon, and due to the fear tactics of settler's lobby.

They compensate for their failure to address the needs of peace by increasing the misery of the Palestinian and by looking for meaningless petty stories like yours about the Hamas indoctrination of kids.

By the way, I just remembered that I did not include the issue of settlement and the settlers' crimes in my presentation about Israeli achievements, which of course makes my presentation less academically correct.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Sun May 13, 2007 10:50 am

Benquasha wrote:The settlers in Gaza that you are feeling sad about built their homes on Palestinian fields and used Palestinian water for their agriculture. They are thieves, but thieves who justify their theft.

They also got MASSIVE compensation by the Israeli state for leaving, including relocation to the West Bank (where they will surely ask for even more money if they ever left) .. talk about state encouragement and rewarding of crime and terrorism.

Maycm, do remind me how much compensation the Palestinians get when they are evicted, or their land is confiscated, or they are prevented from returning to their homes, or to their fields / land ?

p.s. re "building trust with the Israelis" : If a thief breaks into your car and steals things (including the car itself), then the burden is on the thief to build trust, because he has was the one who created the lack of trust in the first place. To put an equal burden on the Palestinians is to (deliberately ?) equate the two sides. The two sides are NOT equal : One side is a Nuclear armed super-power which is occupying someone else's land .. and on the other side are dispossessed occupied people living in (or expelled from) an Apartheid state.

Post by **faceless** » Sun May 13, 2007 1:15 pm

Benquasha, thanks for taking the time to explain what it's like to live in that situation. It's very rare that I've seen direct information from Palestine and I must say that your plight (and that of your people) sounds very much like that of Catholics in Northern Ireland, though happily that at least has got to the point of non-violence.

Best of luck to you and your family.