Shooting at WVA tech ...

[faceless]

Say one of the people making those threats was a student like Cho and that all university students were allowed guns as you suggest? It's a pointless discussion because all roads lead to the fact that more guns = more death.

How many people would die in the crossfire if they were all armed in a situation like this? Look how many innocent people the cops shoot, and they're supposedly trained to know the difference.

[Mandy]

Say one of the people making those threats was a student like Cho and that all university students were allowed guns as you suggest? It's a pointless discussion because all roads lead to the fact that more guns = more death.

How many people would die in the crossfire if they were all armed in a situation like this? Look how many innocent people the cops shoot, and they're supposedly trained to know the difference.

I believe the surveys in the US is that the number of death dropped after introduction of laws allowing concealed gun carry. But even if there was an increase, the issue is whether the ratio of the death changed (i.e. between the innocent and the aggressor).

If Cho could have been stopped after just a few death, think how many innocents would have been saved. Then there is the deterrence aspect.


Update : A reference to the survey I referred to is

https://www.whatreallyhappened.com/columbineeight.php
"The historical context of Columbine seldom gets any mention in the mainstream media. State after state had legalized conceal carry laws for law abiding citizens. As each state passed those laws, crime plummeted."

[faceless]

How about they address the causes instead of the symptoms? Of course, that would require social services being funded and those at need being helped - and we can't have that eh?

Living in fear with a gun - not quite my idea of what "the american dream" is meant to be.

[Mandy]

How about they address the causes instead of the symptoms? Of course, that would require social services being funded and those at need being helped - and we can't have that eh?

I am all for addresses the causes, including counseling / monitoring of students mental health.

Living in fear with a gun - not quite my idea of what "the american dream" is meant to be.

"Living in fear with a gun" is, in my opinion, better than living in fear without a gun. Indeed, the US constitution recognized the right to bear arms, and the fear of being left disarmed. If the constitution is part of the American dream, then so is the right to bear arms, and that means for citizens .. not just the government. Indeed, one of the reasons the constitution wanted citizens to bear arms is to protect themselves from suppression by dictators (whether a "king" abroad, or nearby).

[faceless]

Bollocks to living anywhere that you need a gun to feel safe. It's the antithesis of civilisation.

[Mandy]

Bollocks to living anywhere that you need a gun to feel safe. It's the antithesis of civilisation.

I agree with your faceless. I personally feel the same : I do not want to have to carry a gun to feel safe. If I had to, then, as you suggested in another thread, the idea of moving home becomes the major option.

If we had to plan a society from scratch, I would totally ban guns from citizens. But then I would also limit the ability of the government to wage needless warfare.

The issue is what to do now that guns are so widespread. I see the stats posted here that death by guns is huge in SA and USA .. and low in the UK. But the implied suggestion by the posters is that if we NOW ban guns in SA & USA, the gun death will drop. But that, in my opinion, is the opposite of what would happen. As seen in the survey above, legally allowing citizens to carry guns reduces the crime rate.

As such, I am against the right to carry guns in the UK (having changed my opinion following the thread in the GG forum). But in the US, or other countries where guns are so prevalent in the criminal underworld, i.e. where the gun genie is out of the bottle, then attempts to disarm citizens just leaves them exposed to the gun carrying criminals.

[faceless]

How often do normal people who own guns come up against gun-carrying criminals compared to those who don't own guns? I'd bet it's a painfully small difference.

[Mandy]

How often do normal people who own guns come up against gun-carrying criminals compared to those who don't own guns? I'd bet it's a painfully small difference.

Actually, the pro-gun-carry lobby say the media fail to report on such issues, or omit mentioning the citizens who stopped the crime had a gun, i.e. there is an anti-gun bias in the media reporting. Also, there is the issue of how many times a person carrying a gun uses (or just threatens to shoot) for defense against a non-armed aggressor .. i.e. it isn't just protection against other gun carriers, but all aggressors.

Update :
https://www.nrapublications.org/armed%20 ... /Index.asp
"Gun Stories the MSM Never Reports"

------------------
Studies indicate that firearms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances.
The dirty secret is that far MORE crimes are prevented by armed citizens then by the police. The police show up AFTER the crime is over and clean up the mess, then promise to find the criminal and arrest him or her. Rarely does such an arrest occur. Want proof? Compare the number of murders that takes place every year in California with the number of CONVICTIONS for murder in that state. It's not a very reassuring ratio. - M. R. {from WRH}
------------------

[Skylace]

"

Also, he said he did it for his children. Is this metaphoric ? or where is his wife & kids ?

I think you have not read into anything he was saying. Most of what I have seen was pretty incoherent. He would rant against religion and then compare himself to Jesus. He was in no way being metaphoric. Cho lived in his own world. He perceived it differently from those around him. He was mentally ill. So to him "his children" may have been something that only he knew.

[Mandy]

I wrote earlier
"Though I fear that his words could incite others who feel dispossessed (or about to be expelled) to try to commit a big atrocity as well."

BBC reports "Police 'regret' at killer's video"
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6572743.stm

My instinct is NBC were right to broadcast it, especially as we shouldn't just dismiss his rantings out of hand. We should see what upset him so as to try and spot the same behaviour issues with others -- or will this be like with terrorists where we mustn't try to look into their minds, since that may make it look like they hate us for a reason, rather than hating our freedom ?


I did wonder how many of the things he said happened were literal, e.g. being spat upon. Clearly some are metaphoric, such as digging your own grave, unless it is some kind of initiation ceremony in some weird fraternity.

[Marcella-FL]

I think he read too much ... alot of what he was spouting seemed rather familiar like he read it somewhere else ... did you see the story about the text message he sent to a girl? It was a quote from Romeo and Juliet ... I think he was a plagiarist as well as a lunatic ... which IMO is worse! Just kidding ...

[Skylace]

I think he read too much ... alot of what he was spouting seemed rather familiar like he read it somewhere else ... did you see the story about the text message he sent to a girl? It was a quote from Romeo and Juliet ... I think he was a plagiarist as well as a lunatic ... which IMO is worse! Just kidding ...

You can see his eyes tracking during his video that he is reading from something. More then likely a planned out speech.

He obviously did spend a lot of time reading, not just because he was an English major, but I am sure he was obsessive as well.

[Mandy]

Thanks Marcella. I didn't see the actual text message. I recall the girls said they felt hassled by the texts. I wonder if that could have been part of what sent him over the edge, i.e. he felt that if others had sent the same message, they would not have been reported.

Some might even regard it as romantic to quote Romeo and Juliet.

I am loath to call him a lunatic, especially since if he was still alive, that could be grounds for an insanity plea .. when he deserves to be in jail. I would just rather call him evil or a criminal, but still try to see what what upset him to help others who may be walking the same path as Cho in future.


I agree with Skylace "he was obsessive as well", i.e. part of his careful planning.

[Skylace]

Thanks Marcella. I didn't see the actual text message. I recall the girls said they felt hassled by the texts. I wonder if that could have been part of what sent him over the edge, i.e. he felt that if others had sent the same message, they would not have been reported.

Some might even regard it as romantic to quote Romeo and Juliet.

I am loath to call him a lunatic, especially since if he was still alive, that could be grounds for an insanity plea .. when he deserves to be in jail. I would just rather call him evil or a criminal, but still try to see what what upset him to help others who may be walking the same path as Cho in future.


I agree with Skylace "he was obsessive as well", i.e. part of his careful planning.

I do not agree that he would deserve to be in jail. He wasn't sane. He instead should have been placed in a mental health facility for the rest of his life. To this day I can not understand the logic of putting someone with major mental illness or mental retardation into a prison.

You can also not look to see "what upset him" because he was mentally unbalanced. He would have been upset regardless. What "upset" him were the chemical imbalances in his brain. He needed proper medication and care. Even with that he may have still been a danger.

A good example is a schizophrenic who killed his neighbors dog because he thought it was the devil. That upset him. But it wasn't true.

Cho lived in his own reality, seperate from ours. Someone may have come up to talk to him and he may have percieved them as a threat or trying to make fun of him. While a girl may have never spoken to him ever and he had them together in his mind.

You cannot place regular logic on him.

[IRiSHMaFIA]

Thanks Marcella. I didn't see the actual text message. I recall the girls said they felt hassled by the texts. I wonder if that could have been part of what sent him over the edge, i.e. he felt that if others had sent the same message, they would not have been reported.

Some might even regard it as romantic to quote Romeo and Juliet.

I am loath to call him a lunatic, especially since if he was still alive, that could be grounds for an insanity plea .. when he deserves to be in jail. I would just rather call him evil or a criminal, but still try to see what what upset him to help others who may be walking the same path as Cho in future.


I agree with Skylace "he was obsessive as well", i.e. part of his careful planning.

I do not agree that he would deserve to be in jail. He wasn't sane. He instead should have been placed in a mental health facility for the rest of his life. To this day I can not understand the logic of putting someone with major mental illness or mental retardation into a prison.

You can also not look to see "what upset him" because he was mentally unbalanced. He would have been upset regardless. What "upset" him were the chemical imbalances in his brain. He needed proper medication and care. Even with that he may have still been a danger.

A good example is a schizophrenic who killed his neighbors dog because he thought it was the devil. That upset him. But it wasn't true.

Cho lived in his own reality, seperate from ours. Someone may have come up to talk to him and he may have percieved them as a threat or trying to make fun of him. While a girl may have never spoken to him ever and he had them together in his mind.

You cannot place regular logic on him.

There's not a chance in hell he deserved to be in jail. He was a mentally ill person and wasn't that way out of choice. It's the shitty cards handed to him in his genetic make-up or for other unknown reasons.

This will probably sound odd to some and anger others, but I feel sorry for the guy. Anyone that lived in such a twisted reality as he did and so utterly sad and displaced had no real life at all but a very dark existence. Nobody chooses this sort of life for themselves and can't help what overcomes them with they're as badly troubled as he was. I just wish he was given the proper attention he so badly needed. It would have saved the lives of 32 people and none of this might never have happened.

You're spot on with everything you've had to say here Skylace.