Should Britons have a right to carry concealed guns ?

[nekokate]

The problem I have with this issue is that guns are designed to kill, not to simply maim or incapacitate, so anyone carrying a gun is surely saying that, as much as they might not want to cause anyone's death, they're willing to accept that as a possible consequence if they ever decide to use it.

I also don't believe that guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are a deterrent to criminals. I think it's comparable to the way that the death penalty is arguably not a deterrent for murderers, because whenever someone murders another person, they are either so enraged that they're out of control and not thinking logically, or in the case of premeditated murder, they don't intend to get caught anyway, so the punishment is irrelevent to them.

I'm not sure, but I am fairly certain that in the USA, with their second amendment "rights", the percentage of people killed by guns is way higher than in countries that outlaw concealed carrying (maybe someone knows where to find that statistic, I'm going by a memory of Bowling For Columbine that I've not watched for like 18 months).

The Republican, flag waver argument that "if citizens are not allowed to carry guns, then the only people with guns are criminals and the police" is also redundant to me, because it seems to imply that the average man-on-the-street should be required to suddenly become some sort of back-flipping vigilante in the event that he sees a crime being commited - which is patently absurd. I imagine that if someone walks into a shop with a shotgun, and demands the contents of the till, then it's very likely that if you just gave them what they want, they'll leave and you'll still be alive, whereas in a society where everyone's "packing heat" (or whatever the current, ridiculous action-movie phrase is) and the cashier pulls his or her own gun from beneath the counter, you can pretty much guarantee that someone is going to die or be very seriously injured by some flying metal.

[Skylace]

I'm not sure, but I am fairly certain that in the USA, with their second amendment "rights", the percentage of people killed by guns is way higher than in countries that outlaw concealed carrying (maybe someone knows where to find that statistic, I'm going by a memory of Bowling For Columbine that I've not watched for like 18 months).

The Republican, flag waver argument that "if citizens are not allowed to carry guns, then the only people with guns are criminals and the police" is also redundant to me, because it seems to imply that the average man-on-the-street should be required to suddenly become some sort of back-flipping vigilante in the event that he sees a crime being commited - which is patently absurd. I imagine that if someone walks into a shop with a shotgun, and demands the contents of the till, then it's very likely that if you just gave them what they want, they'll leave and you'll still be alive, whereas in a society where everyone's "packing heat" (or whatever the current, ridiculous action-movie phrase is) and the cashier pulls his or her own gun from beneath the counter, you can pretty much guarantee that someone is going to die or be very seriously injured by some flying metal.

Concealed carry is not legal across the whole of the US. It is dependant on the state.

It's also not just Republican's who defend the right to carry guns. There are plenty of Democrats who do also.

Here are some stats
https://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsa ... istics.htm

[nekokate]

It's also not just Republican's who defend the right to carry guns. There are plenty of Democrats who do also.

That's absolutely right, but it always seems to be the right-wingers that defend the right due to some sort of inflated ego issue. "Ye tryin' to take mah rights away? If ye don't lahk this country, then git out and go live in Eye-Rack!" etc, etc...

I love stereotyping, lol!

[Skylace]

It's also not just Republican's who defend the right to carry guns. There are plenty of Democrats who do also.

That's absolutely right, but it always seems to be the right-wingers that defend the right due to some sort of inflated ego issue. "Ye tryin' to take mah rights away? If ye don't lahk this country, then git out and go live in Eye-Rack!" etc, etc...

I love stereotyping, lol!

Obviously

[nekokate]

I loved the paragraph on the statistics page you linked to that starts "Faulty records enable terrorists, illegal aliens and criminals to purchase guns"

As though terrorists and illegal aliens aren't already covered by the word "criminals" and need a seperate mention, just to get the blood boiling. Like "this country is made up of men, women, and people"...

[luke]

the questions a bit weird, because i think people should be able to have guns, but when they were legal you couldn't just carry them round in your pockets, like the question seem to say. they had to be securely locked up and you could only carry them around if you were taking them somewhere like a shooting range, so i'm for people being able to own guns, but i don't want to go back to cowboy times with shooting matches on the high street

my dad used to have a couple of guns and used to go target shooting, he used make his own bullets and stuff, i used to think our garage was like schwarzeneggers shed in commando when they banned guns they created a huge black market for them, he reckons its easier to get guns now than it ever has been.

why should it be illegal for him to have a gun, people who like hunting or clay pigeon shooting or whatever should be able to do it, i mean i don't like guns or shooting, but we shouldn't be making laws that prejudge them by the standards of some nutter who went crazy in a school - because the nutter can still get guns, easier than ever. someone who wants to kill can do, without guns. before the police did all sorts of checks, you had to be able to shoot at a certain level, have somewhere secure for the guns to be locked up etc now you can just pick up dodgy reconditioned guns down the pub.

so if the question was a bit different i'd vote yes

plus, when the revolution comes, we might need some

[til661]

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 31,918
#2 Colombia: 21,898
#3 Thailand: 20,032
#4 United States: 8,259
#5 Mexico: 3,589
#6 Zimbabwe: 598
#7 Germany: 384
#8 Belarus: 331
#9 Czech Republic: 213
#10 Ukraine: 173
#11 Poland: 166
#12 Canada: 165
#13 Costa Rica: 126
#14 Slovakia: 117
#15 Spain: 97
#16 Uruguay: 84
#17 Portugal: 84
#18 Lithuania: 83
#19 Bulgaria: 63
#20 United Kingdom: 62
#21 Australia: 59
#22 Hungary: 44
#23 Switzerland: 40
#24 Latvia: 30
#25 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26
#26 Estonia: 21
#27 Moldova: 20
#28 Azerbaijan: 18
#29 Denmark: 14
#30 Ireland: 12
#31 Slovenia: 12
#32 New Zealand: 7
Total: 88,745
Weighted average: 2,773.3


DEFINITION: Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

https://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms



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Have a guess what the top 5 have in common.

I can't believe you would even suggest that we should adopt american style laws, do you just pick topics randomly hoping to get an angry response? seems like contrarianism with no deeper point to me.

[nekokate]

A further, quick point on the argument that law abiding citizens should have a right to bear arms: If you live in a country where firearms are illegal, and you flip out and decide you want to shoot someone, you'll have to go trawling some very dodgy haunts in order to purchase one on the black market, but if you live in a country where firearms are allowed as long as you have a license, and you flip out and decide you want to shoot someone, you probably already own a gun, or your neighbour or friend does.

I've had some absolutely blazing rows with former boyfriends, so I know what temporary insanity is, and I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of people simply having to run back to their own house and unlock the gun cabinet, rather than having to go find a black market seller by driving into a really scary neighbourhood and asking around in underworldy type places, by which time they'll probably have calmed down anyway. Know what I mean?

[luke]

A further, quick point on the argument that law abiding citizens should have a right to bear arms: If you live in a country where firearms are illegal, and you flip out and decide you want to shoot someone, you'll have to go trawling some very dodgy haunts in order to purchase one on the black market, but if you live in a country where firearms are allowed as long as you have a license, and you flip out and decide you want to shoot someone, you probably already own a gun, or your neighbour or friend does.

like i said above, someone wants to kill someone, they can do, with or without a gun, but i can't really argue with you because your pictures all nice and puts me off guard

I've had some absolutely blazing rows with former boyfriends, so I know what temporary insanity is,

thats knocked me back in place

and I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of people simply having to run back to their own house and unlock the gun cabinet, rather than having to go find a black market seller by driving into a really scary neighbourhood and asking around in underworldy type places, by which time they'll probably have calmed down anyway. Know what I mean?

i think there might be a section the police have to check for those suffering temporary insanity when arguing so i don't really get what you mean, if you follow that kinda thinking you'll be banning everything that could possibly be used as a weapon because of the minority of people who can't control themselves and flipout and grab a gun, or run someone over in a car in a rage - i think thats a deeper societal issue that needs looking at, rather than keep taking dangerous things away ... because you got guns now, next it'll be knifes, then tools, then anything that looks dangerous in a pencil case ...

[faceless]

so luke, do you think there would be more or less murders with guns in the UK if they were legal to carry?

I'd not be against people having access to guns in controlled environments - much in the same way as other sports are regulated... but why do they need to have them in the house?

[nekokate]

... i can't really argue with you because your pictures all nice and puts me off guard

LOL, you are sweet. Flattery will get you everywhere.

... if you follow that kinda thinking you'll be banning everything that could possibly be used as a weapon because of the minority of people who can't control themselves and flipout and grab a gun, or run someone over in a car in a rage - i think thats a deeper societal issue that needs looking at, rather than keep taking dangerous things away ... because you got guns now, next it'll be knifes, then tools, then anything that looks dangerous in a pencil case ...

Not at all. I'm just saying let's not introduce things into our society that are deliberately deadly. Remember that a car is meant for driving, a knife is a kitchen utensil, a tool is for home improvement and DIY, and anything in the average pencil case is probably not initially designed for killing.

"If someone wants to kill someone, then they will" - that's true, but a gun is a feckin lot better at acheiving that result than a rusty compass I've pulled out of a pencil case in anger... lol!

[major.tom]

I think Kate's said everything that needs to be said. So I, for once, will remain silent...

[luke]

so luke, do you think there would be more or less murders with guns in the UK if they were legal to carry?

I'd not be against people having access to guns in controlled environments - much in the same way as other sports are regulated... but why do they need to have them in the house?

see i'm not arguing they'd be legal to just carry about, except like it was before under regulation - locked in gun cases because your on the way to the gun club. i said i'd vote yes if the question was different, but not a free for all carry weapons about when your shopping in town etc i haven't voted yet and wouldn't vote yes as it is, but to your question, i'm guessing more, probably, if people use or keep them irresponsibly, but there would also be less dead from car accidents if we banned cars, less dead from obesity if we banned fattening food etc and we wouldn't want to get into banning those.

what was gun crime like in this country before it was banned? because i don't remember the problem being anywhere near as bad it is now

my dad had them in the house, locked in a safe, because to keep them at the gun club cost, and if he woke up one morning and decided he wanted go to whatever part of the country to go shooting ( usually at 6am dragging my sister and i with him ), he didn't have to first drive all the way out to collect the guns or wait for them to open, or get back before they closed, plus its handier for all the meticulous cleaning and calibration that goes with owning guns

but why shouldn't he have had them in the house?

see i don't like the idea of laws where we're prejudging people by the stupid standards of someone else, x couldn't handle a gun responsibly so y can't have one either and we're taking z's of him even though hes had one for years with no worrys doesn't work for me.

Not at all. I'm just saying let's not introduce things into our society that are deliberately deadly

in the hands of irresponsible people ... same as those nail gun things, would you want them banned as well if gangs started using them?

Remember that a car is meant for driving, a knife is a kitchen utensil, a tool is for home improvement and DIY, and anything in the average pencil case is probably not initially designed for killing.

and cars kill way more people than guns do in this country, probably knifes do as well, and diy accidents and peanut allergies i've certainly had more trouble with diy than i have with guns

that's true, but a gun is a feckin lot better at acheiving that result than a rusty compass I've pulled out of a pencil case in anger... lol!

* looks about for pencil case *

i dunno, i reckon you could cause some nasty damage with that whereas you might snap to your senses and think before doing something like pulling a triger

see i think its a deeper problem than just taking dangerous things away from people, you took all the guns away they'd use knives, take them away it would be baseball bats, you could keep taking things away but people will just smash each other to death with there fists - its the act, not the tool, that we need to address

[Brown Sauce]

no.

I cannot think of anything more foreign than carrying a firearm.

I would agree, unless the state is failing (or unable) to protect you.

Turkish: Fuck me, hold tight. What's that?
Tommy: It's me belt, Turkish.
Turkish: No, Tommy. There's a gun in your trousers. What's a gun doing in your trousers?
Tommy: It's for protection.
Turkish: Protection from what? "Zee Germans"?

[Mandy]

Is there an analogy here with "legalising drugs" ?

The effect of criminalisation of drugs is to drive the market "underground" .. making profits for criminals.

It could be argued drugs are more dangerous than guns.

There is a consistency in legalising guns and drugs .. but heavily regulating them (including limits on carrying them, controls on locking them up etc.)