Does Israel control American policy, or the other way round?

[major.tom]

major.tom, I assume you voted "NO" to the question asked about Control. If the question was worded "The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?", how would you hve voted ?

Actually, I didn't vote at all.

To that, I would have to say "yes." But that question doesn't seem to cut to the heart of the matter. If you were to ask me the same question reversing the countries, I would also say "yes."

[Karl]

Israel is america's 51st state.
And a large number of Israelis are american passport holders.
But the Israeli lobby in the US is huge and the fact is no politician has ever been elected in the US without their backing.
You would not even get elected to be a school janitor if your policy was anti-apartheid.
If anyone disagrees nameone american politician who has ever said anthing anti-Israeli. If you can i will eat my hat.

[Mandy]

If you wanted to maintain your influence in a certain area and were rich enough to do so, what would you do?

It is Israel (or to be more precise, Israeli passport holders) who are rich and/or head major corporations, and it gives Israel influence in America and elsewhere. i.e. Corruption. The Google video "Iraq, 911, PNAC, Where do all the Roads Lead?" on page 3 of this thread very clearly shows Israel is effectively dictating/manipulating American foreign policy to its own benefit.

It certainly isn't in America's benefit to bankrupt itself, and to spread Depleted Uranium in both the Middle East and, via the American, British and Australian solders, back to these countries home land (via partners and children).

Also "maintaining your influence" is normally illegal in the country in which you influencing. America/Israel LOVE to use the phrase "Iran is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign state [Iraq]". Well, Israel is interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign state [America]

Let us not forget 3rd world debt grew mainly as a result of corruption, and the "buying" of influence. Now the 3rd world is effectively economic slaves .. i.e. have to do what they are told, or else "pay up". This is like wage slavery in the west .. you have to work all ours of the day to earn a living just to survive.


Whilst talking about "corruption" :

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https://www.metroactive.com/feinstein/

"Senator Feinstein's Iraq Conflict"

As a member of the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee, Sen. Feinstein voted for appropriations worth billions to her husband's firms "

As chairperson and ranking member of the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee (MILCON) from 2001 through the end of 2005, Feinstein supervised the appropriation of billions of dollars a year for specific military construction projects. Two defense contractors whose interests were largely controlled by her husband, financier Richard C. Blum, benefited from decisions made by Feinstein as leader of this powerful subcommittee.

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https://www.corruptionchronicles.com/200 ... n_mil.html

"Violations Force Feinstein Military Committee Resignation"

She wielded quite a bit of power and succeeded in steering hundreds of billions of dollars in military contracts to companies partially owned by her wealthy husband, Richard Blum. One company alone earned $792 million from military construction and environmental cleanup projects approved by Feinstein’s committee and another $759 million.
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Anyone want to bet against "Senator Feinstein" or her husband "financier Richard C. Blum" being pro-Israeli or pro-Iraq war ?

[Mandy]

name one american politician who has ever said anthing anti-Israeli. If you can i will eat my hat.

It isn't total control, but more like a punishment and reward system, where the politicians are scared to say anything anti-Israeli, because they know their political careers will be over v. v. quickly. Do see the video which I included at start of the thread ""Republican Paul Findley Dares to Speak Out -- Again ! - AIPAC Exposed" ",

If anyone does say anything anti-Israeli (and there are bound to be a few rare soles, e.g. Paul Findley) they find themselves quickly leaving office "one way or another", including possibly assassination : (note that the Israeli Supreme court has said it is legal under Israeli law to do targeted assassinations anywhere in the world)

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https://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/843805.html
"In the service of the Jewish state"

In the late 1940s, Walther (Walter) Rauff, an SS officer who was responsible for the murder of at least 100,000 people and was wanted by the Allies as a war criminal, was employed by the Israeli secret service.

The mission Rauff was to have carried out in Egypt is not known, but his connection with Cross may supply more than a hint. According to research by Ruth Kimche, a former Mossad employee, Cross was sent in July 1948, as the War of Independence raged, to assassinate several key figures in Egypt with the help of a group of Jews.

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[faceless]

If you wanted to maintain your influence in a certain area and were rich enough to do so, what would you do?

It is Israel (or to be more precise, Israeli passport holders) who are rich and/or head major corporations, and it gives Israel influence in America and elsew./...................

The question was what you would do personally.

[Mandy]

The question was what you would do personally.

Faceless, since you asked, I would try to do what Chavez and Castro are doing : Extend the hand of friendship; offer assistance; try not to be a burden but an asset to the friend; I wouldn't spy on them; I wouldn't disclose my friend's top secrets to their mortal enemy in return for getting some of my friends visas to leave their homeland; I wouldn't get my friend into trouble; I would advice my friend not to do things if it isn't in his interest (even though it is in mine); I wouldn't lie to my friend, or plant false evidence to mislead him to do things, or do false flag operations against him; I wouldn't do acts which would make me and my friend the most despised and feared people in the world; I wouldn't infiltrate that friend's country whereby I would have a person with dual-nationality in most places of influence; I wouldn't skew the media in that friend's country to always make it look good what "we" are doing together (since this distorts democracy, i.e. how can people vote in their best interests if their "facts" are skewed by the corrupt media); I wouldn't start or encourage wars which would make the price of commodities much higher for my friend's citizens to pay; I wouldn't steal from my friend, and when caught, give my citizens get-out-of-jail free cards; I wouldn't own that friend's "central bank", so I can bleed him dry, or bankrupt him any time I want; I wouldn't accuse all protesters of being racist and disliking me for my race or religion [as opposed to my actions], or excuse my acts by saying [my] God told me I could and should do it; I wouldn't distort history or my origins to my advantage; I wouldn't commit or be a party to Genocide, or war crimes; etc.

i.e. I would actually try to be a GOOD FRIEND (like Chavez & Castro) and watch out for my friend's back ... not paint a bulls-eye on it .. or metaphorically smear my friend with honey, and shove him in a hornet's nest (or dress him in red, blind fold him & shove him in a Bull's ring).

[Mandy]

[Israel] does have to much influence over us foreign policy, the same as energy companys, arms manufactures and other big business interests ( on foreign and domestic policies )

Luke, my views would be consistent with the above if the SAME people are in control of Israel, America, Military Industrial Complex [MIC]. They may be called Israelis, Dual-Nationals, Zionists etc, but irrespective of the "name" we give them, it is the same people, families, companies which pull the strings globally. No, this is not "illuminati" .. but RAW, unfettered, capitalism of the WORST kind, prepared to commit Slavery, Genocide, Torture, War Crimes, invasions, occupation, etc. for "profit" for them (to the detriment of citizens in all countries who are not part of this "MIC").

It just so happens that the "MIC" are the top class in Israel, and hence the wording of the poll in this thread.

Maybe I should open a new thread with a Poll "The Military Industrial Complex [MIC] : Does it Have Too Much Influence on US and British Foreign Policy?"

p.s. https://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=10745
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There is only one country on earth that benefits in any way from a Western collision with the Persians, and its current rulers haven't been shy about openly calling for war. The Israelis have stated, loudly and often, that Iranian possession of nuclear technology represents an "existential threat" to the Jewish state, and they've threatened to take out Iran's nuclear facilities if we fail in our duty to do so. They way things are going, however, it looks like they won't have to …

The Lobby moved quickly to bend Western politicians to its will, including "antiwar" Democrats in the U.S. Congress. Having been given a green light to invade by Speaker Pelosi and her minions, is it any wonder that the War Party is crossing that nonexistent line in the Shatt al Arab – the Rubicon of our imperial ambitions?
...
It's amazing that the War Party, after delivering a body blow to our military and American interests throughout the world by invading Iraq, can mobilize its forces to make yet another go of it – this time on a much larger scale.
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[Rys2sense]

This is Ry of Anti-Neocons.com the real Ry the moderatter can varify it.

The quesiton in the poll is wrong.
I can answer that question it is neither. Both Israel and America are both controlled by the MIC thye have overlapping interest. BUt as far as what does America do for Israel compared to what does Israel do for America then ISrael definately gets the upperhand because they do absolutely nothing for America but give demands and cost a lot of money and blood.


Thereason it is important for the MIC to involve Israel is because of the multi Billion dollar investments by Christrian Churches.

see this https://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/v ... php?t=1830

[faceless]

good to see you Ry - if anyone's not seen your site then I recommend it as a good source for intelligent opinions.

[DavidGig]

I fully agree with GGFan's point about the strength of the Israel lobby in the U.S., and I have to say that this is one thing that I think Galloway doesn't get quite right. The traditional Marxist analysis (Chomsky is the best example, since he has trained a whole generation of followers) sees everything in a framework of the struggle for profits. There's just no room in their analysis for the role of powerful classes with other motivations--ethnic and religious loyalties for example.

The one bright point in recent months over here has been a gradual weakening of the taboo over this subject. Thanks to the Iraq war, the Mearsheimer & Walt paper, and a couple of brave politicians, the logjam is beginning to break and we're starting to see a little mainstream discussion of the question.

(By the way, on the question of Chomsky: it should be remembered that he once considered moving to Israel and in fact lived there for a while. So his anit-Zionist credentials are not squeaky clean. America is the villain in his analysis--not Israel. And for many years he refused to put his support behind the boycott movement. Considering how much influence he wields in the Left, this could have made a huge difference to the Palestinian solidarity movement.)

[Karl]

There is one thing im sorry to say that puzzles me
I understand the difference between Marxism and Zionism. OK.
But i also understand that Lenin. Marx and Trotsky were all jewish and that marxism was based on the Jewish Kibbutz system.
I also understand that Marxism was the method by which a small ethnic group the jews overthrough the zsar and managed to control ultimately 300 million people for a time.
Therefore i am inclined to agree that for a period both the western capitalist system as well as the soviet block was controlled under their control.
However, stalin's genocide actually killed more people than hitler although not much is ever spoken about this.
Zionism gained maximum strength during the reign of yeltsin.
So i am reluctant to accept pro communist views because these are equvalant to pro zionism,

Example, tony blair was a former member of cnd and a published supporter of michael foot, john reid was a member of the UK communist party, etc Now look at them. Communism is simply a means to control the many by the few. If you are one of the few then great if not then hard cheddar cheese.

I believe all men are equal.
I believe the illuminati, the neo-cons, the chosen few, the zionists disagree with me.

[harry perkins]

Karl's last post is the worst yet. The idea that capitalism and communism are both under Jewish control was one used by Hitler to portray Naziism as radical while retaining the possibility of winning the majority of (non-Jewish) capitalists to support him, as they eventually did; it is an utterly ridiculous idea. The Russian Revolution was not about "The Jews" taking over 300 million people but a revolt the leadership of which included both Jews and Gentiles. The prominence of Jews was because they were the most opressed group in Russia, giving them an added incentive to become revolutionary. The most opressed often come to prominence in revolutions and mass movements, like British Muslims in the anti-war movement today. I don't think Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler, but even if he did the difference was that Hitler led the systematic industrial anihalation of what would have been, had the project been completed, every Jew in Europe not for anything they had done but simply for being born Jewish, I get suspicious when these kind of quibbles are raised.

[Karl]

please look up the book
"the protocols of the elders of zion"

and WW2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_K2F4-iaxo

[til661]

This is not something I say lightly and I can't remember having to say it to someone before: You are a racist and an anti-semite.

It was pretty obvious from all your other posts but that last one was the final straw. There is absolutely no point debating the likes of you. GGFan is this your idea of people the left should be allied with?

I give up.

[faceless]

Karl - you've already been on thin ice and if it means that other people are upset by your opinions (especially ones suggested to be facts) then your account will be closed.

There will be no further warnings.