Shooting at WVA tech ...

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:08 pm

Just reported (regarding "motive"/"mindset") :

https://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/18/ ... rginia.php
"The police said that a South Korean immigrant who killed 32 people in a shooting rampage at Virginia Polytechnic Institute left behind a note they described as a lengthy, rambling and bitter list of complaints, focusing on what he saw as moral laxity and double-dealing among students he considered wealthier and more privileged."

Post by **faceless** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:09 pm

Skylace wrote:
eefanincan wrote:They read bits of those plays he wrote on the news this evening...... foreshadowing for sure, now that we know what really happened. The interviewed his writing prof and she had actually gone to the police on more than one occasion about what she felt was a 'very disturbed individual' but was told there was really nothing they could do as he hadn't hurt anyone or broken any laws---- which is very true but unfortunate.
And that is what makes me so mad. We have been shown time again that there are warning signs to violent behavior and people go to the police and the police either choose to do nothing or can do nothing! Why aren't we working on changing these laws?

Over here you can be "sectioned" (psychiatric ward for 28 days) by a psychiatrist without criminal charge if they think that you are a threat to yourself or others - don't they have something similar there?

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:14 pm

faceless wrote:Over here you can be "sectioned" (psychiatric ward for 28 days) by a psychiatrist without criminal charge if they think that you are a threat to yourself or others - don't they have something similar there?

I believe there is. I recall a story of one person being put into a mental institution by a judge allegedly for blowing the whistle on some scandal. No -- I am not trying to get into politics here, just a recollection that you can be sent to a mental institution by order of a judge.

Post by **Skylace** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:09 pm

faceless wrote:
Skylace wrote:
eefanincan wrote:They read bits of those plays he wrote on the news this evening...... foreshadowing for sure, now that we know what really happened. The interviewed his writing prof and she had actually gone to the police on more than one occasion about what she felt was a 'very disturbed individual' but was told there was really nothing they could do as he hadn't hurt anyone or broken any laws---- which is very true but unfortunate.
And that is what makes me so mad. We have been shown time again that there are warning signs to violent behavior and people go to the police and the police either choose to do nothing or can do nothing! Why aren't we working on changing these laws?
Over here you can be "sectioned" (psychiatric ward for 28 days) by a psychiatrist without criminal charge if they think that you are a threat to yourself or others - don't they have something similar there?

There are no federal laws governing it. It can vary from state to state.
Just like in this case the teacher went to the police and they said there was nothing they could do. He would have to been doing more then writing things.
It's hard enough to get a stalker in jail or under psych care over here. Believe me. I remember in high school a girl I knew, her mother was killed by her ex. She had gone to the police and told them he was threatening her, saying he was going to kill her, beat her, etc. They said she could get a restraining order but they could not arrest him (which they couldn't because the way the law is written). And of course the restraining order didn't help the night he broke into her house and stabbed her to death.

IRiSHMaFIA · Post by **IRiSHMaFIA** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:20 pm

The thing I don't understand is this guys teacher repeatedly approached the uni officials about his writings because she found them so concerning and had to take matters into her own hands in separating him completely from the rest of his class for a whole semester. She felt teaching him individually would protect the other students as she literally feared for their safety. He had episodes of stalking etc that should have been clear signals to anyone he was an extremely troubled person. As far as I'm concerned that's enough for him to be sectioned and I'm wondering if they really do have that in the USA as he was a prime candidate.

Kezza · Post by **Kezza** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:21 pm

GG_Fan wrote:
faceless wrote:Over here you can be "sectioned" (psychiatric ward for 28 days) by a psychiatrist without criminal charge if they think that you are a threat to yourself or others - don't they have something similar there?
I believe there is. I recall a story of one person being put into a mental institution by a judge allegedly for blowing the whistle on some scandal. No -- I am not trying to get into politics here, just a recollection that you can be sent to a mental institution by order of a judge.

I wish we did have sectioning in Virginia.

In Virginia, you can be put under psychiatric watch for only 72 hours, after that, you're free to leave and sign yourself out. Follow-up visits are requested, but not required. Nor is taking any medication that you may have been prescribed.

Addressing another point about the shooter being far from home: VaTech is about a 4.5-5 hour drive from Centreville, VA (his parents' home), which isn't considered far.

Further point to be addressed: someone mentioned that the shooter graduated from a public school. This is true: the school is located in Fairfax County, VA, which is reknowned for its exemplary public school system. But one must remember that "public" in the U.S. does not mean the same as it does in the UK. US public schools are open to all and free of school fees; private schools adhere to admission critieria and charge tuition.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:40 pm

Just in :
"The Virginia student who killed at least 30 people was reported to police by female students in 2005, and taken into a mental health unit."

Marcella-FL · Post by **Marcella-FL** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:41 pm

In Florida we have what is called The Baker Act to address mental issues. It can only hold someone for 72 hours as well ...

What boggles me is the fact that the professor taught him one on one for the semester out of fear for other students but he was, presumably, still in his other classes then and now. Did anyone ever contact his family? I would be curious to see what his parents have to say ...

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm

A problem with allowing judges to put people in mental institutes is that until a crime is committed, where does someone's free speech rights end ? (e.g. it could be argued the play he wrote was free speech).

Another problem is the judge's themselves might abuse the right. The Soviet Union loved to throw dissidents into mental institutes on the ground they are mad. Can you imagine how many people Blair / Bush would like to put through a mental institute (and if you weren't mad before, you would likely be afterwards due to the drugs administered).

IRiSHMaFIA · Post by **IRiSHMaFIA** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:28 pm

GG_Fan wrote:I problem with allowing judges to put people in mental institutes is that until a crime is committed, where does someone's free speech rights end ? (e.g. it could be argued the play he wrote was free speech).

Another problem is the judge's themselves might abuse the right. The Soviet Union loved to through dissidents into mental institutes on the ground they are mad. Can you imagine how many people Blair / Bush would like to put through a mental institute (and if you weren't mad before, you would likely be afterwards due to the drugs administered).

I see your point here and it's a pretty valid one. It's a bit of a dilemma really. Laws we feel should be in place for situations like this could literally bounce back on us and take away so many our rights, not to mention any one of us could fall victim ourselves for simply applying the right to free speech in certain areas of life.

Good points there GG_Fan. It gave me something to think about.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:42 pm

Always happy to throw in a curve ball (if that's the baseball expression)

Post by **eefanincan** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:04 pm

faceless wrote:
Skylace wrote:
eefanincan wrote:They read bits of those plays he wrote on the news this evening...... foreshadowing for sure, now that we know what really happened. The interviewed his writing prof and she had actually gone to the police on more than one occasion about what she felt was a 'very disturbed individual' but was told there was really nothing they could do as he hadn't hurt anyone or broken any laws---- which is very true but unfortunate.
And that is what makes me so mad. We have been shown time again that there are warning signs to violent behavior and people go to the police and the police either choose to do nothing or can do nothing! Why aren't we working on changing these laws?
Over here you can be "sectioned" (psychiatric ward for 28 days) by a psychiatrist without criminal charge if they think that you are a threat to yourself or others - don't they have something similar there?

They have something very similar here, Face. Basically a psychiatrist/MD will file a "Form #" (i forget what number it actually is). This basically keeps the patient in the hospital for 72 hours by which time an assessment must be made and if further detention is required, another longer-term form is filed. (I'm not a psych nurse, but I believe that's the basics of it.).

You know this whole thing about the teacher spotting this is really hitting home with me. A number of years ago I was teaching a medical type of program at a local vocational school. On the last day of the course, I always planned for the students to hold an open house where they could bring their friends, families, etc and show them what they'd accomplished and at the same time, they also held a fund raiser for their charity of choice --- basically a team work building exercise. Anyway, a couple of weeks before this was to be held, a student approached me one morning to say that one of the male students in the class had approached a couple of them after class the day before and said "What would you guys do if I brought a gun in on the last day and shot you all?". Needless to say I had a class full of very upset students and I had a more immediate concern that our classroom was off the main campus and if something happened it might not be discovered for a few hours when I didn't report in to the main building. Fortunately the student was not in class that day. I was able to get my direct supervisor to come out and talk to the students and he assured us that he would look into getting it handled, contact the police, etc..... which to his credit, he did. Oh, it was awful! People were crying, threatening to drop out of class, you name it. Thing is, you could tell by looking at this guy that he just wasn't "right" and by some of the comments he made, but up until that point, he never really did anything that you could call him on, just was weird.

The police became involved but couldn't charge him for whatever stupid reason but did refer him to some anger management/behaviour program. My issue was with the owner of the college. He told me that he felt "the guy was really just kidding... I don't think he meant it." He didn't want to remove him from the class as it was so close to graduation (real reason, he was afraid he'd lose the rest of the tuition money)--- so I was made to tutor him on the main campus ever day after the rest of the students had graduated. That was the final straw for me.... so I went out and found another job asap. I don't think we ever should have been put in that position.

So, like a year or so later, I am working for a commuity health agency and in a position to the type of worker that I had trained those students to be. Sure enough, I see this guy approaching the office one day.... so I run out to the receptionist and tell her NOT to mention that I work there, just take the guys resume and tell him that we're not hiring at the moment, will keep it one file. The guy blew a gasket and slammed out of the office nearly breaking the door. Go figure.

I'm just thanking my lucky stars that my situation didn't turn out like this one did.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:11 pm

Anyone have the experience I have had where it is the "geniuses" in class [or work] who are potentially the ones who could go over the edge ? i.e. they are so focused on their studies or work, they lose on the social side ?

I suppose the "Mad Professor" label comes to mind (or the fictional Dr. Jekyll and Hyde)

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:25 pm

This story was published yesterday .. but shows how we need to keep presumption of innocence :

https://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=10938
"Student arrested and confined for 12 days for bomb threat he didn’t make, because his principal didn’t factor in Daylight Saving Time!!!"

p.s. Note a comment in the story said "sadder is that the Principal refuses to apologize. Sadder still is the juvenile detention officials didn’t want to release him because they wanted a mental evaluation as he refused to admit to the crime.".

i.e. Unless you admit your guilt, you are mentally evaluated .. sounds like drowning women to see if they "survive" so they can be burnt as witches.

Marcella-FL · Post by **Marcella-FL** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:49 pm

GG_Fan wrote:A problem with allowing judges to put people in mental institutes is that until a crime is committed, where does someone's free speech rights end ? (e.g. it could be argued the play he wrote was free speech).

Another problem is the judge's themselves might abuse the right. The Soviet Union loved to throw dissidents into mental institutes on the ground they are mad. Can you imagine how many people Blair / Bush would like to put through a mental institute (and if you weren't mad before, you would likely be afterwards due to the drugs administered).

Actually, the Baker Act in Florida was enacted to prevent abuse. Before hand individuals could be committed for an undetermined amount of time against their will - adults or children.

https://www.dcf.state.fl.us/mentalhealth/laws/histba.pdf

But that is Florida - not VA